Water

Hi If you dont like the taste of water from the water filter, Just use 5 stage water filter. In which you will get :
Under the Counter Reverse Osmosis System provides safe, pure water using Reverse Osmosis Technology. It’s capable of removing over 90% of total dissolved solids, +99% of all organics and +99% of all bacteria.

STAGE 1: 5 Micron Sediment Particulate Filter Remove dirt, sediment, sand and other physical particles.
STAGE 2: Granular Activated Carbon (GAC) Reduces chemicals, improve Taste, Odor, and Improve Clarity.
STAGE 3: Carbon Block Pre-Filter (KX/CTO2) to reduce contaminants below 5 Micron.
STAGE 4: R/O Membrane. Reduces 93-98% of Total Dissolved Solids, that may be in your water supply.
STAGE 5: Post Carbon Filter. A polishing process that removes taste and odors that can occur after Reverse Osmosis Process developing in the storage tank.
If you wanna use for your home.

But i must say if you like to go on Travel and wanna get pure water the best Water Treatment system is for you is : https://www.ampac1.com/products/seawater-desalination/emergency-portable-watermakers/sw150.html
Emergency Portable Water Filter
Key Features:
AC or DC power as per order
Durable Waterproof Pelican Case
One Button Start-Stop Operation
Energy Efficient, low amperage per gallon of product water
Quiet Operation.
System Pumps Included:
Smart-on Demand Supply pump.
Exclusive high-efficiency booster pump for extended pre-filter life.

Statistics: Posted by ampacusa — Mon Aug 21, 2017 3:24 am

Hi If you dont like the taste of water from the water filter, Just use 5 stage water filter. In which you will get :
Under the Counter Reverse Osmosis System provides safe, pure water using Reverse Osmosis Technology. It’s capable of removing over 90% of total dissolved solids, +99% of all organics and +99% of all bacteria.

STAGE 1: 5 Micron Sediment Particulate Filter Remove dirt, sediment, sand and other physical particles.
STAGE 2: Granular Activated Carbon (GAC) Reduces chemicals, improve Taste, Odor, and Improve Clarity.
STAGE 3: Carbon Block Pre-Filter (KX/CTO2) to reduce contaminants below 5 Micron.
STAGE 4: R/O Membrane. Reduces 93-98% of Total Dissolved Solids, that may be in your water supply.
STAGE 5: Post Carbon Filter. A polishing process that removes taste and odors that can occur after Reverse Osmosis Process developing in the storage tank.
If you wanna use for your home.

But i must say if you like to go on Travel and wanna get pure water the best Water Treatment system is for you is : https://www.ampac1.com/products/seawater-desalination/emergency-portable-watermakers/sw150.html
Emergency Portable Water Filter
Key Features:
AC or DC power as per order
Durable Waterproof Pelican Case
One Button Start-Stop Operation
Energy Efficient, low amperage per gallon of product water
Quiet Operation.
System Pumps Included:
Smart-on Demand Supply pump.
Exclusive high-efficiency booster pump for extended pre-filter life.

Statistics: Posted by ampacusa — Mon Aug 21, 2017 3:24 am

Thanks for the info. Starting my water system in a week. A lot of good information in these post.

Statistics: Posted by Cumberland — Tue Jul 11, 2017 1:51 pm

Thanks for the info. Starting my water system in a week. A lot of good information in these post.

Statistics: Posted by Cumberland — Tue Jul 11, 2017 1:51 pm

Thanks for all the great advice!

Statistics: Posted by Snook — Sun Jul 02, 2017 5:51 pm

Thanks for all the great advice!

Statistics: Posted by Snook — Sun Jul 02, 2017 5:51 pm

Potable water hoses are not germicidal in any way and they are not sterile. The type of plastic would only make a difference if water stayed in the hose for prolonged periods of time. I have been drinking from nasty old Garden Hoses my entire life and I would bet I am healthier than almost anyone on the board. Anything in the water will be in the hose from the moment you use it, unless you have figured out a way to sterilize and dry the inside of the hose after every use!

The advantage of a potable water hose is to remind you what its for and to not leave it laying in the yard for months. You could dash out and buy one of these hoses, clean and refill your barrels, then wait a year and see it that fixed the problem! Or you could empty those barrels, haul them to the nearest landfill, get new smaller containers, refill them on a regular bases and know you always have good water that is safe to use! Swamp

Statistics: Posted by daaswampman — Fri Jun 30, 2017 8:43 pm

Potable water hoses are not germicidal in any way and they are not sterile. The type of plastic would only make a difference if water stayed in the hose for prolonged periods of time. I have been drinking from nasty old Garden Hoses my entire life and I would bet I am healthier than almost anyone on the board. Anything in the water will be in the hose from the moment you use it, unless you have figured out a way to sterilize and dry the inside of the hose after every use!

The advantage of a potable water hose is to remind you what its for and to not leave it laying in the yard for months. You could dash out and buy one of these hoses, clean and refill your barrels, then wait a year and see it that fixed the problem! Or you could empty those barrels, haul them to the nearest landfill, get new smaller containers, refill them on a regular bases and know you always have good water that is safe to use! Swamp

Statistics: Posted by daaswampman — Fri Jun 30, 2017 8:43 pm

Would using a white water hose really make that much of a difference? I would think so If the water were from a sterile source. But, wouldn’t the contaminants in a regular garden hose be in the water pipes where the water is coming from as well?

Statistics: Posted by Snook — Fri Jun 30, 2017 6:23 pm

Would using a white water hose really make that much of a difference? I would think so If the water were from a sterile source. But, wouldn’t the contaminants in a regular garden hose be in the water pipes where the water is coming from as well?

Statistics: Posted by Snook — Fri Jun 30, 2017 6:23 pm

anita wrote:
There are hoses specifically for potable water. Your normal hose is not to be used for drinking water. I suppose it could have some algae build-up if it were coiled with water laying in it, but you shouldn’t be using it to fill the containers anyway. I bought a hose for potable water on Emergency Essentials, I believe.

I would think having the containers in the sunlight and heat is definitely a problem, and probably your main problem.

White potable water hoses are available at most RV stores and in the RV/boating section of Walmart.
Reb

Statistics: Posted by rebnavy1862 — Wed Jun 28, 2017 6:50 pm

anita wrote:
There are hoses specifically for potable water. Your normal hose is not to be used for drinking water. I suppose it could have some algae build-up if it were coiled with water laying in it, but you shouldn’t be using it to fill the containers anyway. I bought a hose for potable water on Emergency Essentials, I believe.

I would think having the containers in the sunlight and heat is definitely a problem, and probably your main problem.

White potable water hoses are available at most RV stores and in the RV/boating section of Walmart.
Reb

Statistics: Posted by rebnavy1862 — Wed Jun 28, 2017 6:50 pm

There are hoses specifically for potable water. Your normal hose is not to be used for drinking water. I suppose it could have some algae build-up if it were coiled with water laying in it, but you shouldn’t be using it to fill the containers anyway. I bought a hose for potable water on Emergency Essentials, I believe.

I would think having the containers in the sunlight and heat is definitely a problem, and probably your main problem.

Statistics: Posted by anita — Wed Jun 28, 2017 2:58 pm

There are hoses specifically for potable water. Your normal hose is not to be used for drinking water. I suppose it could have some algae build-up if it were coiled with water laying in it, but you shouldn’t be using it to fill the containers anyway. I bought a hose for potable water on Emergency Essentials, I believe.

I would think having the containers in the sunlight and heat is definitely a problem, and probably your main problem.

Statistics: Posted by anita — Wed Jun 28, 2017 2:58 pm

I think your answer is your Garden Hose . Did you sanitize it? As a motorhome owner I have to deal with this all the time. We use a White Hose only to fill the water tank and try to keep it as germ free as possible. Use a sanitary wipe on the inlet and outlet, and the hose bib before you connect

Statistics: Posted by Norman11 — Wed Jun 28, 2017 1:58 pm

I think your answer is your Garden Hose . Did you sanitize it? As a motorhome owner I have to deal with this all the time. We use a White Hose only to fill the water tank and try to keep it as germ free as possible. Use a sanitary wipe on the inlet and outlet, and the hose bib before you connect

Statistics: Posted by Norman11 — Wed Jun 28, 2017 1:58 pm

Snook,

Just an FYI, the white barrels are very susceptible to break down from UV rays. Every one we had cracked and disintegrated within 3-5 years. We had grain in them. (Was nice to have Prepper parents to make those mistakes for me to learn from). They look fine just sitting there until you try to move them.

As far as the water, I have a Katadyn Vario but I also have glass tubes of sodium hypochlorite (military surplus). I would cut your losses and get some blue food grade barrels. If you google how to clean them you should be able to find a way to speed up getting the product that is leached into the plastic out. I would also see what others on here say. Especially that live in a climate like yours, I’m from NW PA so we don’t dare store water outside! Good luck.

Statistics: Posted by 3ADScout — Tue Jun 27, 2017 9:09 pm

@ 3ADScout- It was city water. If the water does go bad and there was a situation that I had to drink it, what’s the best way to filter/purify it? If the water looks and smells ok regardless of how long it has been stored, is it drinkable or should I still filter/purify it to be safe?

Statistics: Posted by Snook — Tue Jun 27, 2017 7:10 pm

@ 3ADScout- It was city water. If the water does go bad and there was a situation that I had to drink it, what’s the best way to filter/purify it? If the water looks and smells ok regardless of how long it has been stored, is it drinkable or should I still filter/purify it to be safe?

Statistics: Posted by Snook — Tue Jun 27, 2017 7:10 pm

@ 3ADScout- It was city water. If the water does go bad and there was a situation that I had to drink it, what’s the best way to filter/purify it? If the water looks and smells ok regardless of how long it has been stored, is it drinkable or should I still filter/purify it to be safe?

Statistics: Posted by Snook — Tue Jun 27, 2017 7:10 pm

The barrels i have are white. I don’t have a place to store them in shade at the moment. My only option is outside. Maybe covering them with a tarp will help. I will look into barrels that block UV. That sound like my best option until I build something.

Statistics: Posted by Snook — Tue Jun 27, 2017 7:06 pm

The barrels i have are white. I don’t have a place to store them in shade at the moment. My only option is outside. Maybe covering them with a tarp will help. I will look into barrels that block UV. That sound like my best option until I build something.

Statistics: Posted by Snook — Tue Jun 27, 2017 7:06 pm

Snook,

Sounds to me like you some how got used drums and the residual contents leached out and into your water. Around me most used plastic barrels held Apple Juice and I have seen this happen when they get warm. I would have thought however that the bleach would have stopped the growth. One of the things I always plan for is for my water to go bad (Murphy’s law) so I always plan on having to treat/filter it, if I don’t that’s great. One of the things you might do is re-fill the container (after cleaning) and put a one ounce silver coin in the barrel. Silver is a natural algicide. Check again in 3 months, 6 months and a year. If you have issue just keep changing out the water sooner or later whatever was in the barrel will be leached out totally. Also I try to change my water once a year regardless. Also just curious did you use “city” water or well water?

Statistics: Posted by 3ADScout — Tue Jun 27, 2017 5:54 pm

Snook,

Sounds to me like you some how got used drums and the residual contents leached out and into your water. Around me most used plastic barrels held Apple Juice and I have seen this happen when they get warm. I would have thought however that the bleach would have stopped the growth. One of the things I always plan for is for my water to go bad (Murphy’s law) so I always plan on having to treat/filter it, if I don’t that’s great. One of the things you might do is re-fill the container (after cleaning) and put a one ounce silver coin in the barrel. Silver is a natural algicide. Check again in 3 months, 6 months and a year. If you have issue just keep changing out the water sooner or later whatever was in the barrel will be leached out totally. Also I try to change my water once a year regardless. Also just curious did you use “city” water or well water?

Statistics: Posted by 3ADScout — Tue Jun 27, 2017 5:54 pm

There are water storage tanks on the market that are made from food grade plastic that prevent UV light from penetrating. I have 3 of them , 3000 gallon, and 2 1550 gallon sized tanks sitting up on the hill in direct sunlight with no bleach added to the water and have never had any problems. The water stored in these tanks remains pristine. These tanks come in different sizes and configurations to fit any situation. Might be a good thing to look on the web for a better storage vessel. Another prospect is rain catching storage tanks built to fit up against walls of the house.

Statistics: Posted by Fullmoon — Tue Jun 27, 2017 10:19 am

There are water storage tanks on the market that are made from food grade plastic that prevent UV light from penetrating. I have 3 of them , 3000 gallon, and 2 1550 gallon sized tanks sitting up on the hill in direct sunlight with no bleach added to the water and have never had any problems. The water stored in these tanks remains pristine. These tanks come in different sizes and configurations to fit any situation. Might be a good thing to look on the web for a better storage vessel. Another prospect is rain catching storage tanks built to fit up against walls of the house.

Statistics: Posted by Fullmoon — Tue Jun 27, 2017 10:19 am

Im pretty sure you are talking about the blue drums. If they are in direct light in the south then that is the issue. I have a very dark green, almost black, 600 gallon tank here in TX and I bleach it and it has gotten some algae before. You need to make sure to either build some sort of screen or block that prevents the barrels from getting the direct sun because it combined with the heat will produce the algae after time even when treated with bleach.

Statistics: Posted by kenjabroni — Mon Jun 26, 2017 9:07 pm

What color are the drums?

If UV is getting thru, that would do it…

Sunlight is what causes the algae from what I understand.(mostly with what you’ve mentioned as precautions that you’ve already taken)……No sunlight in.

Everything else stated sounds fine other than the garden hose, but the bleach should have killed off any contaminates from the hose itself after a 5 min run.

I dont use any bleach in mine since my city adds chloramine as a disinfectant…I rotate it out about every 6 months…. 2 50 gallon drums(dark blue) purchased from Wise Foods and stored in my garage.

Statistics: Posted by DR1VENbyKNOWLEDGE — Mon Jun 26, 2017 6:46 pm

I read many different opinions on here and on different sites about how to properly store water for long term use. Last year I purchased some 55 gallon drums from my water company. They said they are food grade and already were disinfected. They did have a sweet smell to them. I thought maybe it was syrup stored in them before. I still washed these out with bleach and rinsed thoroughly. I filled the barrels from my garden hose but let it run for 5 minutes to flush out. I poured 1/3 cup beach (unscented) and sealed tight. I had these store on my porch for a year or so where they got direct sunlight for part of the day. I do live in the south where it is very hot for most of the year. I opened these up recently only to find some nasty algae. So, what do I need to change. Also, I has several 7 gallon jugs I use and treat them with bleach as well. I stored them in my garage for a year and they were fine.

Statistics: Posted by Snook — Mon Jun 26, 2017 6:24 pm

TREX
You are assuming correctly. I remember my 4th grade teacher making the whole class giggle when she explained what happens when you “assume”. Anyway, This would be an shtf or emergency situation to use as drinking water, otherwise using as gray water would be no big deal. I was looking for a better answer but looks like there is not just one answer. a lot would depend on which chemicals were used and the concentration levels.

Statistics: Posted by BigOrange75 — Wed Jun 21, 2017 9:30 am

i clicked the link for the video…and there’s something about a virus..

Statistics: Posted by jimLE — Tue Jun 20, 2017 10:15 am

i clicked the link for the video…and there’s something about a virus..

Statistics: Posted by jimLE — Tue Jun 20, 2017 10:15 am

Be very careful and test every filter. Every Black Berkey filter I have used (eight), have separated at the base plate! Swamp

Statistics: Posted by daaswampman — Sat Jun 17, 2017 10:25 pm

Be very careful and test every filter. Every Black Berkey filter I have used (eight), have separated at the base plate! Swamp

Statistics: Posted by daaswampman — Sat Jun 17, 2017 10:25 pm

Thanks trex, I’ll check out those links. I was just being paranoid and trying to say that pool water would be my last choice for a water source not that I’d tell people to not use it if that’s all you have.

Statistics: Posted by dmwalsh568 — Sat Jun 17, 2017 7:36 pm

Thanks trex, I’ll check out those links. I was just being paranoid and trying to say that pool water would be my last choice for a water source not that I’d tell people to not use it if that’s all you have.

Statistics: Posted by dmwalsh568 — Sat Jun 17, 2017 7:36 pm

dmwalsh568 wrote:
My opinion is that most folks use algicides as well as bleach to keep their pools from turning green and I’m not sure I’d trust any filters to remove the algicides. …

The one thing I do know for sure about the black Berkey filters is that they aren’t just filled with activated charcoal like some filters (like the Brita filters.) Here is part of a FAQ I found on the filters:

http://www.bigberkeywaterfilters.com/he … urces/faq/

What are the Black Berkey elements made out of and how do they work?
…
So while it’s probably safe to drink pool water filtered by a black Berkey filter, since it’s not listed I’m not willing to risk it in all but the worst circumstances. I’ve got access to a river and other water sources that aren’t treated at all that I do trust the black Berkey filters to work with.

But if the pool water is your only source then you have to weigh the risks unless someone can find information that it will remove the algicides, or that there is another filter that says it definitely will remove them.

Well, I was making the assumption that the inquiry was discussing using pool water in an emergency, and I guess I am to be faulted for making an assumption…

That said, I have some basic chemistry background (on par with a year of normal college chemistry) and some dealings with public policy. Based on the fact that these algaecides are approved to use in pools and that most pools get drained into the environment, the chemicals are not likely to be too dangerous.

I did a bit more research, and found this:
http://www.poolproducts.com/blog/pet-po … icals-pets

Algaecides, Antifreeze and clarifiers are not considered harmful when they are properly diluted in the pool water. When they are not diluted or broken down into the water they are corrosive and dangerous.

The article is discussing pet safety around pools, and while they warn several times about the chlorine, this is saying that algaecides are not dangerous in moderate amounts. OTOH, if you are drinking out of a pool for several days, you are ingesting a lot of this water.
Hmmm.
There is a good resource (for a lot of stuff about water) here:
https://omegamanjournal.wordpress.com/
you can see his qualifications here:
https://omegamanjournal.wordpress.com/2 … ink-about/
(Note the HTTPS in his address – this guy seems “kinda serious”)

The author specifically addresses pool water here:
https://omegamanjournal.wordpress.com/2 … ing-water/
and there are links from that article to several other of his articles.
If you plan to use pool water as a primary back up, I would recommend reading all of the linked articles too. (Frankly, I plan to read all of them, just because water is such an important subject.)

Statistics: Posted by TRex2 — Sat Jun 17, 2017 8:01 am

Like many others here, I have various different filtration systems, big burky, lifestraw, alexapourpro, sawyer, etc.. But here’s one run by solar panels, but is very expensive:

https://www.treehugger.com/solar-techno … rator.html

Statistics: Posted by rickdun — Fri Jun 16, 2017 4:15 pm

Like many others here, I have various different filtration systems, big burky, lifestraw, alexapourpro, sawyer, etc.. But here’s one run by solar panels, but is very expensive:

https://www.treehugger.com/solar-techno … rator.html

Statistics: Posted by rickdun — Fri Jun 16, 2017 4:15 pm

TRex2 wrote:

dmwalsh568 wrote:My opinion is that most folks use algicides as well as bleach to keep their pools from turning green and I’m not sure I’d trust any filters to remove the algicides. Maybe the high end filters like Berkey black filters, but personally I’d either distill it before drinking it, or just use it as gray water for plants or to stop sewer gasses from coming out of empty toilet or sink traps.

Reference: http://www.berkeyfilters.com/berkey-ans … fications/

Well, that was part of the reason I said that, for drinking,
you should use a quality filter.
I can’t find any definite statement, but I would bet,
the Berkey filters use charcoal, or something like charcoal.

None of the chemicals listed as algicides in the wikpedia entry https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Algaecide were listed on the black Berkey filter spec page I linked above. That makes me concerned.

The one thing I do know for sure about the black Berkey filters is that they aren’t just filled with activated charcoal like some filters (like the Brita filters.) Here is part of a FAQ I found on the filters:

http://www.bigberkeywaterfilters.com/he … urces/faq/

What are the Black Berkey elements made out of and how do they work?

Without getting too complex, several methodologies are utilized by the Black Berkey purification elements. The elements are composed of a formulation of more than a half dozen different media types constructed into a very fine matrix creating millions of micro-fine pores. The pores are so small that pathogenic bacteria, cysts, parasites, sediment and sedimentary minerals are not able to pass through them. The media formulation both “absorbs” some contaminates and “adsorbs” other contaminates. Next, heavy metals ions (mineral molecules) are extracted through an Ion exchange process where they are essentially electrically bonded to the media. Finally, our filter elements are designed such that each water molecule can take several minutes to pass through the filter elements whereas these molecules passing through other filtration systems pass through those filters in literally microseconds. The longer the water molecules are in contact with any media, the greater the removal of the various contaminates.

So while it’s probably safe to drink pool water filtered by a black Berkey filter, since it’s not listed I’m not willing to risk it in all but the worst circumstances. I’ve got access to a river and other water sources that aren’t treated at all that I do trust the black Berkey filters to work with.

But if the pool water is your only source then you have to weigh the risks unless someone can find information that it will remove the algicides, or that there is another filter that says it definitely will remove them.

Statistics: Posted by dmwalsh568 — Fri Jun 16, 2017 2:01 pm

TRex2 wrote:

dmwalsh568 wrote:My opinion is that most folks use algicides as well as bleach to keep their pools from turning green and I’m not sure I’d trust any filters to remove the algicides. Maybe the high end filters like Berkey black filters, but personally I’d either distill it before drinking it, or just use it as gray water for plants or to stop sewer gasses from coming out of empty toilet or sink traps.

Reference: http://www.berkeyfilters.com/berkey-ans … fications/

Well, that was part of the reason I said that, for drinking,
you should use a quality filter.
I can’t find any definite statement, but I would bet,
the Berkey filters use charcoal, or something like charcoal.

None of the chemicals listed as algicides in the wikpedia entry https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Algaecide were listed on the black Berkey filter spec page I linked above. That makes me concerned.

The one thing I do know for sure about the black Berkey filters is that they aren’t just filled with activated charcoal like some filters (like the Brita filters.) Here is part of a FAQ I found on the filters:

http://www.bigberkeywaterfilters.com/he … urces/faq/

What are the Black Berkey elements made out of and how do they work?

Without getting too complex, several methodologies are utilized by the Black Berkey purification elements. The elements are composed of a formulation of more than a half dozen different media types constructed into a very fine matrix creating millions of micro-fine pores. The pores are so small that pathogenic bacteria, cysts, parasites, sediment and sedimentary minerals are not able to pass through them. The media formulation both “absorbs” some contaminates and “adsorbs” other contaminates. Next, heavy metals ions (mineral molecules) are extracted through an Ion exchange process where they are essentially electrically bonded to the media. Finally, our filter elements are designed such that each water molecule can take several minutes to pass through the filter elements whereas these molecules passing through other filtration systems pass through those filters in literally microseconds. The longer the water molecules are in contact with any media, the greater the removal of the various contaminates.

So while it’s probably safe to drink pool water filtered by a black Berkey filter, since it’s not listed I’m not willing to risk it in all but the worst circumstances. I’ve got access to a river and other water sources that aren’t treated at all that I do trust the black Berkey filters to work with.

But if the pool water is your only source then you have to weigh the risks unless someone can find information that it will remove the algicides, or that there is another filter that says it definitely will remove them.

Statistics: Posted by dmwalsh568 — Fri Jun 16, 2017 2:01 pm

My opinion is that most folks use algicides as well as bleach to keep their pools from turning green and I’m not sure I’d trust any filters to remove the algicides. Maybe the high end filters like Berkey black filters, but personally I’d either distill it before drinking it, or just use it as gray water for plants or to stop sewer gasses from coming out of empty toilet or sink traps.

Reference: http://www.berkeyfilters.com/berkey-ans … fications/

Statistics: Posted by dmwalsh568 — Fri Jun 16, 2017 10:20 am

For flushing or washing, any charcoal filter will suffice. For drinking also, if it is a good quality charcoal filter. If the pool was recently filled and treated, you could drink it straight, although that isn’t the most healthy thing in the long run. By “day thirty” you will be dealing with a lot more contamination. Do you have a strategy for replenishing it? If you are collecting dew/rain from the roof, all you need is a good sub-micron ceramic or hollow fiber membrane filter like the ones used in the Berkey system (those aren’t the only choice, just an example).

Statistics: Posted by TRex2 — Thu Jun 15, 2017 4:23 pm

For flushing or washing, any charcoal filter will suffice. For drinking also, if it is a good quality charcoal filter. If the pool was recently filled and treated, you could drink it straight, although that isn’t the most healthy thing in the long run. By “day thirty” you will be dealing with a lot more contamination. Do you have a strategy for replenishing it? If you are collecting dew/rain from the roof, all you need is a good sub-micron ceramic or hollow fiber membrane filter like the ones used in the Berkey system (those aren’t the only choice, just an example).

Statistics: Posted by TRex2 — Thu Jun 15, 2017 4:23 pm